Right, Wrong, Who Really Knows?

When does something that is wrong become right?When I grew up as a kid, Christmas was the time of fruits. The house would smell of apples, oranges, grapes, and mandarins. While oranges, apples, and grapes are now in excess all year long, Christmas is still the time of what I call mandarins (mandarínur in Icelandic and mandariner in Norwegian). For close to 30 years, at least few of the Nordic nations have been wrongly calling clementines mandarins. My question is, hasn't it really become mandarínur and mandariner (in Icelandic and Norwegian respectively)? Instead of forcing ourselves to call it clementines, which will never feel right, shouldn't we rather just call them mandarins and note down the history of the word in dictionaries?

This is not the only example of slight mess-ups. Few other examples are Naan bread and Chai tea. I am told that Naan means bread in many of the languages where Naan bread originates from, and hence we are really saying bread-bread. The same goes for chai, which means tea in many Asian languages. Hence we are drinking tea-tea. For people speaking languages using these words correctly, it sounds stupid to hear us say these things but we have adapted them for certain types of tea and bread. Is their use incorrect or can a word simply mean different things in a different language?

I would like to point out that many of the Scandinavian languages have different meanings of the same words (called false friends) and I am quite sure this is common in many other languages.

Now lets go over to a much more sensitive topic. The word "neger" in Norwegian and the word "negri" in Icelandic, translation "negro" as mentioned in previous entry. In English, it is clearer that the word has a negative meaning with regards to slavery and apartheid. As far as I know, there have never been black slaves in neither Norway nor Iceland. To these nations black people were exotic, foreign, and we knew nothing about them other than what we read in books and later saw on TV. At least when I was a kid the word "negri" was just a label on an equal level as a Norwegian, Asian, Chinese, American, Indian, Eskimo etc. It was lack of education about the parts of the world where black people come from that made us give them a generic label, not that we wanted to be mean.

I cannot quite make up my mind about what is right or wrong here. If this had happened 100 years ago those words would have for sure got stuck in the language. Now at the age of Internet and media we are told that what we are saying is wrong/stupid and even horrible as in the case of the last example.

When does a word gain a new meaning? When does a name stick to a thing? I guess a linguistic would be the right person to answer this one but I am a bit curious what people think about the various instances?

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it's so sad how all the

it's so sad how all the holidays, even such important as Christmas or Easter lose their charm in the course of passing years...as for abusive words, what can be done about it? we can just rely on people's conscience.

Following the current right manners

I should have thought of this movie earlier in the "red-line" of topics, but the movie "Red Sun" have takes on this topic quite nicely. Worth a watch!

I am generally allergic to ....

Well the first user comment on Internet Movie Database seems to indicate there is some hidden meaning behind the scenes. Generally, I _hate_ Western movies but I might give this one a shot if given the chance to watch it;-)

Inner vision

I believe a mandarine is a small citrus fruit with seeds, while a clementine is a small citrus fruit without seeds? Thanks to being seedless, the clementine in recent years has grown more popular and taken over the position earlier held by mandarines.

I would probably say Naan bread, because there are so many widely different types of bread, but not Chai tea because to me almost all tea comes from the same plant and I despite daily drinking tea, I don't see what makes tea labeled Chai different than other tea. Does it refer to tea originating from China or South-East Asia as opposed to India, Sri Lanka or other parts of the world?

Regarding that other comment, I would strongly oppose to make the product name Ipod equivalent to any MP3 or other portable music player. Yes, it once worked for Sony Walkman (although they probably didn't like it), but it arrived in a different era and was one of the first useable portable cassette records, while there were a bunch of brands and noname makes of useable MP3 players long before Apple entered the scene (and in particular if their player can not be loaded with any music of your choice without taking measures of hacking it?!). More likely that "to google" would become another way to say "search the Internet".

Gah, now I got an inner vision of a big orchard basking in scorching hot sun. I see Afro-American slaves pick clementines (or oranges if you wish) into big baskets, while the owner dressed in white clothes and a big hat, lies in a sun bed in the shadow of the trees, sipping iced (Chai) tea and listening to his favorite music on his MP3 player. ;-P

You google a guy you have just met

Oh my God Carlsson, your inner vision is politically incorrect. We must sensor it ;-) .

What we call Chai tea is apperently supposed to be some spicy tea. I am not sure about the exact details here but I am pretty sure it is some specific spicy brands.

I was trying to investigate the mandarine-clementine issue online and some sources said that we had never really eaten mandarines because those were never imported (they are supposed to be bigger). Others said what you said, that clementines are seedless. Which one is correct I have no clue.

Google has definitely become a way to say "search the Internet". Every woman knows for example that you should google a guy you meet:-). You would never say "search the Internet a guy".... Seems like we human quickly adapt thing. I don't like it either if we start calling mp3 players ipods but I guess that is likely to happen:-(.

One Go makes all the difference

Women google men. Men ogle women.

Regarding the mandarines, maybe both are correct: larger than clementines, contain seeds and seldom or never were imported. I though have clear memories of eating small citrus fruits with seeds, could've been satsumas or something like that. On another blog I read a note about how clementines and oranges tend to cross-pollinate so if you get clementines with seeds, it could be because they were grown next to oranges rather than acutally being mandarines.

Did I mention that in my inner vision, the slaves get to eat as many oranges as they wish, which typically is about five oranges per day? Maybe it balances the political incorrectness so no need to censor it.

Crazy world

Don't worry! I wont sensor you:-). After reading a bit too much about political correctness stupidity in the last few days I am even tempted to start encouraging it.

I read up on clementines a bit and found that they do indeed cross-pollinate easily. It is actually a problem in someplaces to protect the seedless varieties. So much that our sue-eager Americans are threating to sue the bee keepers for their bees destroying their seedless varieties.

What you eat is how your child will become

*rolling eyes*

If it wasn't for the bees and to lesser extent other insects, there wouldn't be any clementines to eat, since the flowers would never get pollinated. Well, I presume by today you can artificially pollinate your plants, but for large plantations it might be a lot of work and the follow-up question is how cheap labor you can find that will do the work properly.

I found at least four different Sue Eager:

* Sue Eager, dietitian at Ranken Jordan hospital, Maryland Heights MO
* Sue Eager, director of plant services at Buffalo Public Schools, Buffalo NY
* Sue Eager, once BS in infertility/in-vitro etc, Margate FL
* Sue Eagar, administration supervisor/customer support at Beckman Coulter, South Africa

It is possible that two of those refer to the same person, perhaps someone who found out the biggest cause of infertility is that you're on the wrong diet... Oh, the joy of Google!

LOL

There are actually people called Sue Eager:-). LOL! In Iceland they actually have rules about what you can call your kids (they have a name regestry). When you hear these kinds of stories you actually understand the reason:-).

Oh well, if they actually get through with their silly suing case (suing the bee owners and scaring them away) it is at least a consolation that it will cause them some extra work. I guess you will see the plantations moved to Asia shortly after that.

Bizarre names

I'm sure somewhere these people also exist, perhaps with different spellings:

Sue Reenam
Sue Matra
Sue Baru

Aftonbladet wrote about the Christmas family in Georgia, including 30 year old Mary Christmas, named after her grandmother. Mary's aunt married into the White family and now goes as Jeane Christmas White. Mary's step-cousin (?) is Carol Holiday. Do you need more examples? :-)

My name is "Washing Machine Jónsdóttir"

I used to have a discussion about this thing with my friends when I lived in the USA. You can name your kid anything there and they see nothing wrong with it. The discussion ended up with everyone in the office having a nickname which in theory could have been our birthday. It was something along the lines of me being called Washing Machine and someone else called Microwave. Washing Machine Jónsdóttir... can you imagine the teasing in school:-).

Anders: from Greek or German? :-)

It could be worse, you could've been born e.g. into the Smoketoomuch family.

So, did Washing Machine have anything to do with your personality, like you more often than others wash your clothes? I'm thinking along the lines how many native people (Native Americans, African people, Old Chinese etc) give names that have a clear meaning. Certainly most of our current names can be traced to Greek, Latin, Old German, Old English, Scandinavian and so on where they have a particular meaning, but it is not as obvious as when your name is part of the daily vocabulary.

I should have picked something cooler

No, unfortunately it was something I picked out of thin air. It would have been cooler if it had some connection. Maybe I did some laundry the day before...

Btw. came accross this site while decripting what your subject line meant. You have probably seen it before but it had some guesses about where it comes from at the bottom.

Which item would you like to be?

No, I hadn't seen that site before. From what I gather, "anders" in everyday German means something along the lines of odd, unusual, strange while the Greek heritage supposedly is "manly" as the page also mentions.

Oh well, this begs for a question that maybe is material for a blogpost on its own: if you got to adopt the name of an item as the way to call you, which item would it be (i.e. best reflects you)? For myself, I can't really say. First I'll have to think about something clever.

Indian name?

Hehe I guess it is popular to believe that it is mainly a greek name:-).

What would I call myself... very good question. Cannot really think of anything at the top of my head. Does it have to be a thing or can it be one of those Indian (sorry Native American) names?

words and langauges...

Languages are living things, so the meanings of words change.

English is a language that has changed a lot more than Icelandic in the last 1200 years (back then, they were fairly close). Spanish is a world language like English, but not quite as old. All three have long and proud literary traditions, and are alive today and still changing.

In Spanish it is still common to see the word "minusvalido", (related to the english word "invalid"), describing a "person with a disability". There is also, in English, the word "retarded", which was commonly used in "mentally retarded" to describe a person with an intellectual or cognitive disability.

Once, these words were just factual descriptions chosen according to the usage of the time. But they have gathered associations, from a perceived stigma being attached to the conditions they describe, with the change in the usage of their cognate words, and with a change in how people understand the intellectual and social framework of the past. Thus they have become less acceptable as polite neutral descriptions.

People near my age who were in aboriginal families in Australia were being taken from their parents and taught to be like white people, since that was considered better for them. Currently, the idea that this is a reasonable thing to do is generally considered anathema, and "civilising black people" is seen, like "the white man's burden" as an expression of an idea that was wrong-headed, so expressing the idea except with clear disapproval is considered "ill-educated".

Likewise the idea of having a concubine is out of fashion (although the practise seems about as common as ever - it's apparently one of the things about people that doesn't change a lot). I would be surprised if you have been introduced to anyone as a concubine...

Another case is the English word "eskimo" - or the old Norse "skræling" - which is considered a word used by the uneducated who don't really care, when the polite term is Inuit. These changes take place over years or decades, usually, so people in the middle of the change are always left wondering when it makes sense to drop one word for another. Many of the people concerned don't really see any negative meaning attached to what they consider a perfectly good word, and don't bother changing. Whether, in the end, there are more people who change words or whether it turns out to be a storm in a terminological teacup, with the old word surviving quite happily is often unclear in advance.

The words "queynt", and "pudenda" are now out of fashion. One (in its modern version) is considered extremely crass, the other because it is considered over the top as a euphemism, and a stupid one at that (it literally means "the shameful things"). Yet they were both once reasonable terms to use for what I was taught to call a "vagina". But as something that has a lot of names in English (and other languages) and is pretty central to people's lives in many ways, it's likely to be a word whose usage is politicised, and reflects social trends, more or less for ever. "Paleontology", by contrast, is much less likely to be replaced.

So much for words that change their acceptability. There is a seperate but related question of words changing their meaning. A "factory" in 18th century european colonies was what we would now call a warehouse, and not at all a place where things were made. "Manufactured" literally means hand-made, but has come to more commonly signify things that are *not* hand-made, but mass-produced. This is a simpler process of people not having a perfectly shared understanding of what a word means, or of applying it to something relevant to them that is a slightly new usage.

When this happens differently in different places, you get a word like "jumper". In Australia, it means a garment like a pullover or sweater, whereas in the US it means a completely different thing.

Eventually, a usage of langauge among one particular group collects so many differences that it is considered a new dialect or seperate language - which is why Icelandic isn't the same as Norwegian, and why although you probably know what it means to be 1337 it is a meaningless term to many people.

"The story of English" is an interesting book about one language that is pretty readable (it goes along with a BBC TV series of the same name). There are lots of others.

But to return to your question of changing meanings, it is a bit like deciding who is the most popular girl in class - as much depends on whom and how you ask as anything really measurable. On the other hand, people use langauge fairly often so have to make practical decisions one way or another (iPod or MP3 player? Record player or gramophone? Mail, chain, or byrnie? Ontology or taxonomy or vocabulary or word list or?), which are influenced by political and social nuances as well as mundane things like your actual vocabulary and experience of the subject. It is the sum of all these influences acting among large groups continuously that bring the changes (or not)...

Inuit, Native Close to North Pole person?

That was a _very_ interesting read! Thank you!

I did not know Eskimo was a politically incorrect word. I know it is a generalization over a large number of people but I didn't know there was anything negative associated with it. More the general naive name that we tend to use for anything that we don't know a lot about. I consider myself educated but it is impossible to know everything about everything. I know that there is also the term Inuit but I thought that was a more narrow term just referring to parts of them. Plus, in for example Icelandic "inúíti" is a rather stiff and difficult word to pronounce but it is very easy to say eskimói. To me that word is just like calling someone Scandinavic or Nordic. Hmmm, guess I have a lot to learn.

Yes, I guess we cannot really say for sure what will happen with the language. It would be interesting to guess what will happen for few things and then check back in 20 years and see what happens.

words and langauges

I don't know how fussy people are about "Inuit" vs "Eskimo". I believe that in some relevant language "inuit" means people, and I have a vague feeling that "eskimo" is derived from some French equivalent of "Skraeling". But all that is more relevant to english.

On the other hand, if I didn't look around me more when I grew up I would think 'coon' and 'boong' are reasonably acceptable (they are not). If I am in doubt, I tend to go for the safer option.

Although I say that my blind friends are "blind", whereas my friends who are "legally blind" (cannot see much and are legally considered entitled to support as is a person who sees nothing, in order to ensure that they are productive little workers) I generally describe as "visually impaired" - also the term I use as a more generic one. It seems that "blind" is a generally acceptable term for being blind, so where it covers the range of cases under discussion using the more complicated and generic term is just silly. (On occasion, of course, I am silly. And on others I don't really know much).

Your point about education is interesting. It can be used as a way to look down on people and suggest they are somehow inferior, or an excuse for not taking the trouble to think about and find out something. I guess that's the point of thinking and writing, and reading.

I reacted

Had just written a long answer and my stupid machine decides to restart:-( Oh well here are the cliffnotes from that answer.

I did a little bit online research on among other places Wikipedia. There they state that the word eskimo means "raw meat eaters" and that it is a word that native Yuip use for themselves. The raw meat eater association is stated as an erronous belief in other places.

I had never heard the word skraeling but in my Icelandic dictionary it is stated as the negative word for an eskimo. Some writers in the old days used it to describe eskimoes as barbarians.

I cannot help but react a little when we start finding politically correct words for disabilities like blindness. It almost feels like we are saying that there is something negative about being disabled which I think is very wrong. Sure there are some ugly words that exists and that we hopefully never use again. I don't really see the problem with a medical term like blind. Visually impaired does not necessarily fall into that category as I would look at that as more details about the blindness. To me visually impaired would be the ones that are not totally blind... This might be me not having good enough power over English. Keep in mind that this was just my first reaction and maybe if I think more about it I will find that I am wrong. Feel free to argue me on this one:-).

As for education.... Yes, calling someone uneducated is often used in today's society to try to disarm people and try to make them feel lesser. Ignorant is another one of those terms that is used a lot. Those are actually two of those "one word conversations" I mentioned in my last entry. They are often used alone without any proper backup to get people to shut up. People don't like to be called that and instinctively shut up. They have been temporarily brought down on their knees and don't always manage to get back on track. Let me see if I can cough up a blog entry about this in more detail in the next few days.

Danny Blind

At least you don't call your friends "visually challenged". I believe that would sound worse than e.g. half-blind.

I play online fantasy football, and a couple of years ago participated in many leagues (games) at a time. Another guy who was playing in the same two leagues as I did had two teams, one made up of FC Ajax players and one made up of various diseases (yes, it is fantasy in the term player names don't have to match real players). I suggested one player name that would fit in both teams... See the subject line!

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Gerður Jónsdóttir

I am an Icelandic mediumgeek who lives in Oslo, Norway. I work at Opera Software trying to make their products easier to use. I like reading and traveling most of all but there are many other things I like sticking my nose into. I have secret liking for getting upset about religious and political matters. Those are topics you are likely to find some entries about on my blog in between other things that happen to interest me then and there. Please note that the opinions here are my own and have nothing to do with my employer, family, or friends.
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